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Luis Palau
ChickenHawk Fervor
With much amusement I have been reading some blogs and articles about the ChickenHawks in the Bush administration, Bush Supporters or Neocons in general. Here they mean Bush, Crystal, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, etc. This general slur refers to leaders that are in favor of deploying the military in war but never served themselves. They never reference the unending list of Democrats (including most of the current Presidential Candidates) that are ChickenHawks. And need I remind you of the biggest ChickenHawk of all Mr. William Jefferson Clinton. Here is a guy that left the country to avoid the draft and wrote a letter HERE to the ROTC Colonel co-opting and conning him because he was worried how his dovish posture would affect his political viability yet led a war (Kosovo) not of national interest or security but in an unprovoked and preemptive fashion. Note here from Clintons letter during the Vietnam War.
From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.
After I signed the ROTC letter of intent, I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm.
These next three excerpted paragraphs are royal. Pure Bill Clinton:
“I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system.
“Finally, on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn’t, and stating that I couldn’t do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.
I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn’t mail the letter because I didn’t see, in the end, how my going in the Army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything…..
But back to the question at hand who is a ChickenHawk. By the standards that the vocal opponents to the current administration seem to be employing, a ChickenHawk is someone in leadership that is in support of others going to war but never really allowed themselves to be exposed to such possibility. Under the strictest application of those guidelines George W. Bush was not a ChickenHawk at all. But who’s quibbling. Here is my assessment of the candidates by the apparent standards of the left wing critics of the Bush administration.
DEMOCRAT CHICKENHAWKS:
John Edwards Yes
Barak Obama Yes
Joe Biden Yes
Hillary Clinton Yes
Chris Dodd Yes
Bill Richardson Yes
Mike Gravel No
Dennis Kuchinich No
REPUBLICAN CHICKENHAWKS:
John Thompson Yes
Mitt Romney Yes
Rudy Giuliani Yes
Tom Tancredo Yes
Tommy Thompson Yes
Mike Hukabee Yes
Duncan Hunter No
John McCain No
Ron Paul No
If you use the support for their invasion of Afghanistan you probably pick up more of these as ChickenHawks. So don’t you think this whole area of discussion and innuendo is a little silly. If we have military service as either a criteria for being President or to impose a limitation on the President in the use of the military you really have a messed up situation. (Do you hear me Hillary). What can the idiots on the left be thinking here? So much of their “dissent” is mere silliness.
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33 Responses to “ChickenHawk Fervor”
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“But who’s quibbling.”
Um, you are Steve.
Couple of things… I think avoiding the draft & not serving are two completely different things… & I think the reason republicans get the chickenhawk tag is because they tend to be a little more pro war & especially “stay the course”. You know what it is. Nice post though… Perfect!
Prominent right-wing Republicans & thier military service:
George W. Bush - National Guard back when service there meant you did not see combat. Even so, went AWOL for a year.
Dick Cheney - did not serve.
John McCain - McCain’s naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. (Attacked by Bush Campaign for President as having become mentally unstable while a POW.)
Colin Powell - General. US Army, Attacked by many on Radical Right for being an appeaser, soft on Saddam and other enemies.
John Ashcroft - did not serve.
Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor.
Dennis Hastert, - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Roy Blunt - did not serve.
Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Bill Frist - did not serve.
Mitch McConnell - did not serve.
Rick Santorum - did not serve.
Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Jeb Bush - did not serve.
Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve.
Bill Bennett, (author of Why We Fight), did not serve.
Antonin Scalia - did not serve.
Clarence Thomas - did not serve.
Phil Gramm - did not serve.
Paul Wolfowitz - did not serve.
Spencer Abraham - did not serve.
Henry Hyde - did not serve.
Jack Kemp - did not serve.
Don Nickles - did not serve.
J. C. Watts - did not serve.
Bill Simon - did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss - did not serve.
Marc Racicot, avoided the draft despite a lottery number of 23. see http://www.billingsnews.com/story?storyid=3182&issue=98
Right-wing preachers and pundits:
P. J. O’Rourke (author of Give War a Chance), did not serve.
Bill Kristol, editor The Weekly Standard, did not serve.
Bill O’Reilly - did not serve.
Sean Hannity - did not serve.
Wolf Blitzer - did not serve.
David Horowitz - did not serve.
Mike Savage - did not serve.
George Will - did not serve.
Pat Robertson - his US Senator daddy got him out of Korea when war began.
Ralph Reed - did not serve.
Ken Starr - did not serve.
Gary Bauer - did not serve.
Alan Keyes - did not serve.
Roger Ailes - did not serve.
I just think that when you’re a part of the “shock & awe” team… well, like I said, you know what it really is, no need to explain.
M2……..
“I think avoiding the draft & not serving are two completely different things…”
So, lets see, since we haven’t had a draft since the 70’s, soon the whole concept of ChickenHawk will lose its meaning since no matter what your hawkish leanings are, there was no draft for you to avoid…..hmm
“I think the reason republicans get the chickenhawk tag is because they tend to be a little more pro war & especially “stay the course”.
Well you could apply that same standard to some Democrats if I recall correctly such as FDR who managed to stay the course during the darkest days of WWII. Technically he is a ChickenHawk as well yet summonsed 18 million Americans to war. You may be against this war or war in general, but the Democrats in Congress that scream about Bush “staying the course” mostly voted for it. They are experts of casting los and reading political tea leaves, but that isn’t they way to run a war. Now that Bush’s surge seems to be helpng pacify the Sunni insurgents we’ll just have to wait for the result, but you can be sure that the Democrats are worried. A lot of talk from this quadrant, a lot of double standards, but precious little statesmanship……..steve
I agree the term is silly, but I will say that it is suppose to be applied to those who are strong supporters of war, thus the “hawk” part. That being said, according your your list, the front runners from each party are strong supporters of war. This is why I say there is little difference between the right and left. It can be said “ostensible diversity conceals an actual uniformity” in the case of the Dems and Reps. Both are pro war and pro globalist in their economic foreign policies. They just like to appear to debate and have slightly different means to the same goals.
Jim……What do you think, would it be fair to call any of these or others that lets say supported the military intervention in Afghanistan but never served ChickenHawks? I know that Paul served as an AirForce surgeon so he wouldn’t technically qualify.
Also, you seem to be twisting the definition of ChickenHawk by inserting your own preference when you say the term ChickenHawk is “supposed to be applied to those who are strong supporters of war.” Can we at least agree on this. If you are going to be a supporter of war (especially if you are in leadership) that you should at least be a “strong” supporter or get out of the way? Anything less, like a weak or moderate “supporter of war” would be a most dangerous game. That is what I believe the leadership of the Democratic party have come to……….steve
Oh… A few dems:
Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 .
Tom Harkin - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
Fritz Hollings - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-’47; Medal of Honor, World War II.
Ted Kennedy - U.S. Army, 1951-1953.
John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat.
Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
Max Cleland - Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam
Bob Kerrey - Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71.
David Bonior - Former House Minority Whip - Staff Sgt., Air Force, 1968-72
Mike Thompson - Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart.
Pete Stark - served in the Air Force 1955-57
Wesley Clark, General, US Army.
Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971.
Bill Clinton, did not serve.
Just off the top of my head of course…
They’re such a peaceful bunch of nancy boys & girls, this might be it?
M2………Few notable comments:
John Kerry, gets the silver star after he wrote up his own accommodation and submitted it to the powers that be. Btw did you ever look over his military records that he has promised to release (NOT). I suppose the nuance of this award will come to light if he does.
Bill Clinton, did not serve. So that it were as simple as that. If you read my full post you must realize that this is maybe the supreme case of draft dodging and contorting the truth of any of the so called mentionees relative to their service and ChickenHawk status.
Ted Kennedy, joined the army and Joe made sure he was stationed in Paris at the Supreme Allied Command which is the NATO Headquarters after he was kicked out of Harvard for cheating on an exam, my recollection of which has to do with him actually hiring someone to take an exam for him for him. But nobody on the left sees this as a daddy fix. I bet Pigalle has never been the same since Ted was there.
I notice you include a long list of Democrats that served and a mention of a few that merely didn’t happen to serve. Yet when the Republicans don’t serve they are chicken hawks.
Try this on:
John Edwards, High Lottery Number (how convenient and didn’t choose to serve, you know 2 Americas)
Joe Biden, Failed Physical (those of us that were there know how this was an area of easy fix).
Hillary Clinton, didn’t serve nor offer to enlist
Christopher Dodd, Joined Reserves in 1968 (we all know the Reserve story in 1968)
Bill Richardson, Failed Physical (see Biden)
Dennis Kucnich, Failed Physical (see Biden)
Mike Gravel, Non Combat Army
I also notice no mention of Hunter Douglas (R) who is the most highly decorated combat veteran of any of the Presidential candidates in either party. I have said this before, so much of what you don’t say says so much.
Your’s and other’s position on this ChickenHawk thing leads to only one logical conclusion. No one is qualified to be President without military (preferably combat) experience. Are you telling me that you haven’t just cherry picked the Republicans to make this case in the worst light for them while omitting the same on the left. I thought you claimed to be an independent. ……steve
But Steve, he carried the letter with him every day. Every day! That is almost as good as mailing it, right? How did people fall for him?
Where were all the Lefties during Kosovo? I don’t remember them protesting Clinton’s Summer home, etc.
Neil……..isn’t it quite funny that Clinton can articulate the evils of a draft which compels war time service regardless of the individuals view of the war even if it is a “just war.” He also states that
“a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation.”
I had not realized that the peace and freedom of the United States was at stake when he repeatedly bombed Kosovo. Do you think that the reason he was willing to make an exception with Kosovo was because he was defending Muslims? That would be a slight shift in his war doctrine from that of only fighting a war for strictly National Defense and National Security reasons to that of National Defense, National Security and the defense of an Islamic region even if it mean starting a preemptive war with a sovergin nation. Of course his former policy was largely dictated by his desire to avoid combat personally, do you hear the left including Hillary screaming ChickenHawk to this? ……….steve
You’re right. And the MSM will give them all a pass. They are having too much fun pretending the whole Middle East mess is something Bush invented.
Neil………..amen…..steve
Who cares? They are JUSTICES of the Supreme Court. A quick overview of the Constitution and its relevant parts:
Article I, Congress:
-power to declare war;
-power to fund the army for two years at a time;
Article II, Executive Branch:
-commander-in-chief of the armed forces
Article III, Judicial Branch:
-nothing related to war or war-like activities.
Your addition of judges to the list is disingenuous at best.
Bridget………it is always good to get you lawyers in for a legal opinion………steve
I see it like this: Couldn’t a mayor who had never been a cop oversee the police department in an anti-crime effort for the city that mayor has responsibility for? Or - would that mayor never having had the particular experiences of dealing with the grittiness of crime first-hand mean they couldn’t lead any efforts against crime?
plodon……..right on the point. It is nonsense to start a line of criticism because a Presdient is exercising his constitutional duties. We really will narrow the field if we cut out all the ChickenHawks from the White House Race. I think this is so stupid it tends to reflect the left in broad daylight where you can see all the flaws………steve
I think anyone who resisted a corrupt draft for an immoral war is a hero!
Would you be willing to spread the word about www.draftresistance.org? It’s a site dedicated to shattering the myths surrounding the selective slavery system and building mass civil disobedience to stop the draft before it starts.
Our banner on a website, printing and posting the anti-draft flyer or just telling friends would help.
Thanks!
Scott Kohlhaas
PS. When it comes to conscription, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
Scott………Corrupt by who’s standards…………Immoral, by who’s standards? Once you allow each individual to make that decision independently you will have chaos in the National Security program. FDR brought 25 million men into the service during WWII most through conscription. If you allowed your pretext to be the standard there would be a total breakdown in the system. If that is what you want, you’re just a washed over anarchist.
I was drafted in Vietnam my father in WWII who are you to say that was corrupt or immoral? But thou doeth protest too much me think. There is no threat of the re-institution of the draft by anyone, other than Charlie Rangel. ……steve
The whole question of whether or not a politician served in the military, and using that to determine if he (or she) is qualified to determine when or nation should or should not go to war is ridiculous. It reminds me of the bumper stickers I see around here that say something like, “Elect more teachers to government if you want a better education policy.” Puh-leazz.
The only reason I might consider military service (or lack thereof) in a presidential candidate is if it goes to character. Then again, it depends on their age. Did they dodge the draft at 18? Or did they dodge the draft at 27? I wouldn’t hold a 25 year old arrest against a candidate (unless it involved a crime of moral turpitude), much less would I hold it against some guy that he avoided the draft when he was barely done being a teenager.
Think of the wars this nation has been and the presidents who presided over them.
War of 1812- James Madison- did not serve in the Revolutionary War
Civil War (War of the Southern Rebellion)- Lincoln- Never served and learned all he knew about war from books.
Spanish American War- Civil War veteran.
WWI- Woodrow Wilson- Never served.
WWII- FDR/Truman- FDR never served. Truman was a WWI veteran.
Korea- Truman- WWI veteran
Vietnam- Kennedy/Nixon/LBJ- Kennedy and Nixon were both WWII veterans. Johnson never served.
Gulf War I- G. W.H. Bush- WWII veteran
Gulf War II- G. W. Bush- National Guard
Service (or non-service) doesn’t seem to correlate with the success of a war effort.
John……..exactly my point. It is not relevant and the mere introduction of the idea to the discussion creates a potentially very alarming situation with much undesirable precedent. Also the left, the champions of the ChickenHawk concept, don’t seem to apply their deffinition very consistently to say the least. Therefore it is pure propaganda and not a serious part of the political dialectic……..steve
Hi Steve,
Don’t forget that the Muslims Clinton was supporting in Kosovo were funding their armed rebellion by smuggling heron from Afghanistan into Europe. Of course, this isn’t all that surprising as Bill was great friends with several other drug dealers, as shown by how many he pardoned on his last day in office.
the Grit
Hi Grit,
“by smuggling heron”
Thanks, now I know what Clinton’s Quid Pro Quo was on this deal….steve
Clinton Clinton Clinton Clinton….
Do you think anyone will look back on BushCo’s 8 years & say remember Bush did this badly & Bush did that badly?
I’m sorry, anyone “conservative”?
It is exceptional deflection… Or not.
Steve, have a little fun some day & do a post on something (pick anything) positively disconcerting that BushCo is doing, has done or stands for… & I don’t mean, “Man, our administration is pandering to the wussy dems & it pisses me off”, I mean something that you really have problems with. Something party line cons would disagree with & call you a sell-out for believing. Does that exist? Because something not conservative enough doesn’t count… Try it, you just might find it liberating.
I don’t mean for this to be an attack at all. Really I don’t…
Just injecting humor.
M2 ….. you are not paying attention. Here, just off the cuff. I have written about problems with Bush. For starters I take strong objection to:
Immigration and Border Issues
Discretional Spending like a drunken Sailor
No child left behind (see point 1 above)
That he didn’t surge Iraq much earlier.
But…..you could and probably will say that 2 of the issues above would please the cons and 2 were in concert with pandering to the wuses. So no matter what I say, I lose, right.
I am mad that he hasn’t seized Social Security reform after expressing a position on it.
I support all the tax cuts and only lament that they aren’t permanent.
I support the war on terror.
I would probably support conscription before W gets around to it.
and if he gets near signing that Koyto accord you will hear me scream about it ….. AGAIN.
Also I think I am more hawkish on the Anti-Man Made Global Warming issues than W cares to bother with.
If the surge works are you going to change any part of your position? We both know the Democrats are worried about just that. BTW…didn’t mean to offend you by attacking WJ Clinton so much. ………..steve
I’ve been very conflicted on Iraq from the start. I was part of the 5% that didn’t feel we were ready to take action just yet (if at all)…
Then I was in a very small minority that for the 1st couple of years felt like, “well we’re there, lets have some ethics & not jump ship”. I hated that I had to feel that way since I wasn’t for going in in the 1st place but I think my hands were tied.
The last year or so I’ve taken a good long look & think it’s time to move in another direction.
I have no doubt in my mind that we could “fix” any country of our liking with the right amount of time & money.
Not sure that makes it sensible?
But sure, we can surge & surge & surge (maybe even another Vietnam?), spend a gazillion bucks & then really fly that mission accomplished banner sometime in 2016… Maybe?
& W (pronounced Dubya of course. I hope you’ve at least taken that sticker off of your Tahoe by now) will get all the credit for “staying the course”.
At what cost?
I remember being against this entire debacle in the beginning when liberal estimates from our fearless leadership were that we’d spend somewhere in the neighborhood of 120 billion dollars to get the job done.
Some Dems & others said it looked more like 200 billion was necessary & Rummy, Rove & the crew laughed them out of the dialogue.
Where are we now? 350 billion “ish”?
Every problem you have with Bush is what I would expect.
& I don’t care what the Dems are worried about.
You can beat up on Clinton. It’s what the right is doing to deflect right now (on Gonzo, on Libby, heck, on everything. The first term & then some they pretty much left him alone) so by all means, stay in line.
This was more conversational, I should have just emailed you.
Steve,
I don’t know if it’s a legal opinion… any eighth-grader should know the difference between the three branches of government. It’s kind of like saying that a Cato Institute member is a chicken hawk because he never served but wants to reduce welfare fraud. Judges are totally irrelevant to the political debate - and the Founders did their best to ensure that they would remain insulated from the political process.
Bridget, your right and the odd point is that the left started the name calling with this ChickenHawk stuff. I think it speaks tons about their politics……steve
Blah blah blah you’re a law student or an attorney or whatever blah blah blah so you wanna chime in (twice because we didn’t hear you the 1st time) on the fact that conservative judges were added to my list.
So take those conservative judges off the freakin’ list…
My point was not to call out “chickenhawks”. It was a list of some republican/conservative leaders & thier service. I was trying to point to the irony of it all. I also included a few in the outspoken right wing media (& yes, I know they’re not one of the 3 branches as well thanks). But of course you know what my point was Amy Holmes Junior. (I will give you the benifit of the doubt by already assuming that you’re brighter than Coulter & Malkin because, who isn’t? -Sorry to compare you only to other women but I know a girl must have roll models). So, you just practicing the art of getting peoples eye off of the ball? Lets focus on the fact that he added judges to the list… Whatever.
If you don’t have a problem with the leadership in Washington being quick to fight & slow to diplomacy while a majority of them figured out a way to not “serve” their country militarily, cool.
Sorry the list included your precious judges… Although, I don’t think they’re that insulated from the political process.
Anyway, if you in fact made it out of 8th grade, figuring out my point was not complicated.
But M2 you must admit that you were quick to squirm when I called out the standard bearer of all ChickenHawks in Bill Clinton. He was pretty quick to the fight and maybe too quick to the diplomacy with N. Korea as they “rope-a-doped” him all the way to becoming a Nuclear power while he bragged about mission accomplished with his deal on their nukes. ………steve P.S. Bridget above is really great…….lay off. You might want to check out her blog first. http://helvidiuspachyderm.wordpress.com/
Yeah I typed quickly & hit submit… Sorry Bridge. I definitely don’t wanna be in the practice of attacking “NSL posse members”
I see she links to Coulter & Malkin on her blog though… Perfect.
& I didn’t “squirm” on Clinton… I was just trying to point out that everything & everyone wrong is all of a sudden (lately more than ever) compared to what Clinton did or Clinton thought. Classic deflection & desparation in the closing months.
Lets stand on our own merits.
“well I did this poorly but look at Clinton” … Corny!
He was definitely a “chickenhawk”… I just think his club includes Bush / Cheney / Rove / Wolfowitz / Kristol / Hannity / Will / Ashcroft & the like. You know what we’re all getting at here, c’mon. The Dems were slow to commit fully until their patriotism was so brilliantly challenged & then wussed out & the Reps were all about this craziness from the get go. So what do people do when most of those national security heroes didn’t actually serve themselves? Call them “chickenhawks”. YES it is stupid & symptomatic of todays grossly lame political climate. Great job Bushie, way to be a “uniter & not a divider” (or whatever word/s e made up while running… Hows that working out for you. This guy had the country in the palm of his hand when he stood on the WTC grounds with his bullhorn & fireman.
Why am I re-hashing all of this silliness?
Again Bridget, with all due respect to you & more important Steve, sorry for being a typical blogger!
M2……..you missed the point on this. “I was just trying to point out that everything & everyone wrong is all of a sudden (lately more than ever) compared to what Clinton did or Clinton thought.” It wasn’t so much to pile on Clinton (though he deseves it) it was to call out the leftist that selectively use the ChickenHawk and practice turning the other cheek when it comes to their own. I listed both D’s & R’s when I applied their standards that they overlook on the D’s…………..steve
I will give you the benifit of the doubt by already assuming that you’re brighter than Coulter & Malkin because, who isn’t? -Sorry to compare you only to other women but I know a girl must have roll models
Coulter went to Cornell undergrad (an Ivy League school), UMich law school (a top 6, if I recall correctly), was the editor of the Law Review (if I recall, quite an honour), and worked at the Justice Department (which, as I recall, is one of the most difficult post-grad positions to obtain).
So I guess she’s a drooling idiot.
My point was not to call out “chickenhawks”. It was a list of some republican/conservative leaders & thier service.
Do you think we’re that stupid to believe you? In response to a “chickenhawk” thread, you posted a list of conservative/Republican leaders and their service histories. Of course, those two facts are entirely unrelated. /sarcasm
If your point was not to discuss the “chickenhawk” accusation, why bother with this post?
Bridget………..you are right again, no doubt Ann is a stellar constitutional intellect, and quite a wordsmith……….steve
Very sorry - did not see your apology when I wrote that.
Cool, but posts do evolve Bridget… Like now we’re talking about Coulters amazing creditials.
Steve - the reps are leading the charge right now so they are more open to being selected when the term “chickenhawk” is used.
I understand you… But think Bush / Cheney / Rove / Wolfowitz / Kristol / Hannity / Will / Ashcroft & the like would never fight in a war no matter how many opportunities they were given. I could definitely say the same for a lot of Dems but they’re not leading the charge.
I digress… This entire thing is a bit ridiculous.
M2……..I disagree re Bush. Not at 61, but I believe if his Reserve Unit had been called up he would have gone and flown planes like daddy. For one thing he wouldn’t have had a choice. It is part and parcel to the Reserve thing. I doubt he would have gone to Canada. Not gonna believe it.
Also, surprised you aren’t amused like me with Clinton’s letters to the Draft board and ROTC Colonel.
And You Said: “Steve - the reps are leading the charge right now so they are more open to being selected when the term “chickenhawk” is used.”
Exactly my point, when the Democrats were “leading te charge” they not only refained from the ChickenHal moniker, but defended his objection to Vietnam………but if yo read his letter carefully you see that his objection to the military, the draft and fighting a war was much broader than merely conscientious objections to a Vietnam War………………steve
but posts do evolve Bridget… Like now we’re talking about Coulters amazing creditials.
YOU were the one who brought up her supposed lack of intellect. I responded to that. If you are unclear on any of what I wrote, try reading the entire conversation.
It’s called CONTEXT.
Bridget…………I told M2 that Ann was my neighbor (below) and doesn’t that almost make us friends………? We can’t be talking about my friends. Steve
Sunshine… I have no problem understanding that I brought up Coulter. My point in saying “like now we’re talking about Coulters amazing credentials” was to give an immediate example of exactly how POSTS EVOLVE. How’s that for context?
Good Lord Perry Mason…
I’m sure that your ever so skillful intellect & debating prowess has you at the top of your class & makes you the pride of La Jolla but I’m not the one…
Lets move on.
Plus, we supposedly apologized.
M2………you are talking about my neighbor here. Ann lives 7/10ths of a mile from me in Florida and we often take walks by her house. We’ve never been invited in though…………steve
It’s threads like these that make me proud to call Steve and Bridget (AKA Sunshine?) friends. For what it’s worth Bridget, I think the Perry Mason bit is a compliment.
Oh — you too Neil
Tammi……..you make me blush here……..steve
Steve,
Go ahead and make me jealous, why don’t you? :p
M2,
I’m sure that your ever so skillful intellect & debating prowess has you at the top of your class & makes you the pride of La Jolla but I’m not the one…
If you are picking on La Jolla, surfing capital of California, we will have WORDS.
You hit that p on your happy face, sort of looks like a smirk….
….steve
Santa Cruz “Sunshine”… But I’m headed to Birdrock right now (my Brothers’ home break).
See you in the water… Leave the blow up Ann doll at the house.
Tammi,
Awww - thank you!
Steve,
It’s supposed to be a tongue sticking out - a “harrumph” in a smiley, if you will.
M2,
Why Birdrock? I don’t particularly like to surf there….
As for blow-up dolls, of any varietal - that’s just tacky. Really.
Hahaha.. Because like I said, both of my brothers live right out front & when it goes IT GOES.
I know & have surfed every decent break from Santa Barbara to San Diego. Where do you go? Are you a newbie? What do you ride?
Great opportunity to smoke a peace pipe because I’m not sure we have any other thing in common.
Sorry Steve but this thread is toast anyway right?…
Pretty much until the Democrats start trying to separate themselves from the pack more in cut throat earnest…..steve
Call me wimpy, but I hate those rocks. Don’t mind climbing down to the beach, don’t much mind the slimy stuff, but I hate the underwater rocks. Just always gotten the feeling that I’m going to smack my head against one and it’ll be all over. It’s also a b—- to get back out sometimes - currents are strong.
Yes, I’m a newbie. Use a 8.5′ board.
Yeah, tough break for a longboard.
PB is perfect for you… Right there at Chalcedoney.
Ever head to La Jolla Cove for a swim? That’s my new spot.
Was there two weekends ago & you’d have thought live earth was happening. It was PACKED. Never seen it as crowded (or even close) as it was that Sunday.
Tons of Europeans… But it is July…
Eat a meal at “My Place” on Girard if you haven’t yet.
Perfect little family owned spot with great food & a nice little wine list. My favorite in La Jolla & I’m a “food guy”…
Bridget……He seems to know the right spots in Palm Beach……..steve
Eat a meal at “My Place” on Girard if you haven’t yet.
Perfect little family owned spot with great food & a nice little wine list. My favorite in La Jolla & I’m a “food guy”…
Will do & report back.
Was there two weekends ago & you’d have thought live earth was happening. It was PACKED. Never seen it as crowded (or even close) as it was that Sunday.
Tons of Europeans… But it is July…
If you are referring to the 4th of July weekend (on either side of the 4th), yeah, that was ANYWHERE in the area. Parking was not to be found within a mile of the Pacific.
That’s it… I was
Oh & Tower 23 in Pacific Beach has a place called Jordan (JRDN) that has pretty good eats right on the water (If you can stomach the trendy crowd)… & I hope you’ve had a Kono’s (Pacific Beach, right at the front of the pier) breakfast sandwich? Time it right or the lines down the block…
Had Kona’s for lunch (when there was no line). I also live on their coffee (the little coffee stand directly to the north) - great iced mint coffee for $1.75. (Take that, Starbucks!)
I’ve passed by JDRN and have considered going there, but, again, the trendy crowd….
RE: Some Dems & others said it looked more like 200 billion was necessary & Rummy, Rove & the crew laughed them out of the dialogue.
Where are we now? 350 billion “ish”?
So as it turns out we’re at just over 600 billion?
10 billion a month in Iraq & 2 billion a month in Afgan…
Some say it could surpass 1 trillion dollars?
WOW!
M2……and pretty soon you have some real money. Did I miss something here, what page am I on? …..steve