Fifteen Million Iranians Should Do It

12 Responses to “Fifteen Million Iranians Should Do It”

1. Mommy Zabs on July 16th, 2007

   i would add it is not a matter of if, but when- when it comes to Iran.

   MZ……I think Israel will need to carry a big stick when they threaten Iran or they will get no where except into another war that the world will twist in the Islamists favor………….dad

2. Neil on July 16th, 2007

   Hopefully Iran will get a regime change soon. Otherwise something serious with Israel looks unavoidable. I think Israel has been pretty patient already.

   Hi Neil……..I sure hope we get that regime change soon like you say. What I find it interesting of those that stress that we need to let diplomacy work in the Israel matter don’t understand that like divorce, it takes two interested parties to make anything work together. I believe that the Arabs have stated and proven repeatedly that they have no intention or desire to be at peace with Israel. Who are these idiots here in the USA that think it is Israel that needs to modify their policy for peace. I think that it is the same crowd that used to say “land for peace” and we know what happened with that now……….steve

3. Angel on July 16th, 2007

   Israel should simply blow them off the map..after all isnt that their game plan for the Jewssssss!..pfftt!

   Hi Angel…….. You bet, this is pretty much my point here! …….steve

4. matt on July 16th, 2007

   sadly i think this quagmire of verbal brinksmanship will result in bloodshed on both sides.

   though, i am wondering if anyone thinks that the connection we in america make is one based on dispensational endtimes philosophy and not one of practical politics. i dont think there is any solution to the middle eastern hatred for the jews other than peaceful coexistence. personally, i dont see this happening without some divine intervention.

   something that does scare me though is the tendency to read into any situation involving jewish soverignity the literal intrepretation of revelation. i am not accusing steve of doing this here, but i do think american diplomacy has a proclivity to see international diplomacy through this religious lens.

   i dont want to hijack this post by reading the potential for biblical prophesy, but i do think it is necessary to at least acknowlege how the two are intimately related. granted, i love jewish culture and am impressed by their longevity in the face of frequent historical genocide tragedies. however, i do feel obliged to ask the question if anyone beleives that isreal also needs to be called into question for some of their tactics. this is not a tit for tat arguement, but a practical attempt to ask wheter or not the behavior of jewish politics post 1948 UN resolutions is based on biblical grounds, or a conceptual framework of what is fair in itnernational diplomacy.

   hope that nobody is confused by my thoughts. all dialog is appreciated.

   Matt…..you have a lot here so I may not do it all justice. First of all, I formed my consistent views concerning the State of Israel around 1967 and certainly as an outcome of the circumstances surrounding the 6 day war. Incidentally, I have an excellent DVD on my desk titled “Six Days in June” that was broadcast on PBS and made available through their bookstore. I think this along with another DVD from PBS titled “Israel a Nation is Born” should be pretty much required reading viewing for people before the formulate firm convictions about Israel and what they have had to do over they years (centuries maybe millennium) to defend themselves.

   So, as you know I have been a student of Biblical Prophesy but I can assure you that my views related to Israel has nearly nothing to do with what I have ever read or heard from the Bible concerning Israel. These views I hold were formed in the 60’s as mentioned before and I was pretty much apathetic relative to “religious” issues until the mid 1970’s.

   You ask the question: “I am wondering if anyone thinks that the connection we in America make is one based on dispensational end times philosophy and not one of practical politics.”

   I would have to say that the answer to that question is definitely yes, though not necessarily from American connections.. The president of Iran Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has stated so himself. He has recently and repeatedly stated that Israel will be pushed into the sea and that it is the fulfillment of this as an Islamic “end times” scenario that he is actually looking forward to. It is in this vein that I have taken note and has driven my viewpoint that I agree with you that it seems like “diplomacy” will never resolve this situation.

   I don’t see the current aggressive leadership in the Middle East with hostile intentions towards Israel as honest brokers in the resolution of the Israel and so called Palestinian conundrum. Diplomacy, marriages, peace treaties or other arrangements were two groups resolve matters require that both parties seek a desired outcome. I don’t think I am being judgmental when I say that the Arab alignment on this matter is not interested in a diplomatic or peacefull outcome. For goodness sake they have not only been stating so for decades, but every single move they have made over this same time period has corroborated such statements.

   I often hear of challenges to Israel’s “tactics.” I don’t know what that means exactly. Please, I would really like to know what is suggested here. I’d like to examine and consider this perspective. I have noticed however that the murder of innocent people is almost always initiated by the Arabs. What Israel feels it must do in response to and to defend against these people should not be confused with unreasonable “tactics.” What would you or I do to protect our friends and family. The freest Arabs in the world are the Arabs that live in Israel. They have far more rights and opportunities than virtually any other Arab population.

   The reason for the apparent harsh tone of this post by myself is because it is a response to actions (deadly actions) of the Iranian government in moving the this high stakes game forward with the announcement of their targeting 600 locations in Israel. I come to this particular point, given my understanding of the history in Israel, with the firm conviction that the most likely way to avoid a major war in Israel is for Israel to be unambiguously hawkish in their posture in response to Iran’s continued actions. I don’t believe such talk would impress the end time scenario of Ahmadinejad and cause an adjustment in his perspective, but I think it could affect the Mullahs who hold the real power and cause the population to get this “regime change” program into gear over, if nothing else, that Ahmadinejad could get them into something pretty distasteful to them if they don’t reign him in. This is why I believe that Israel should indicate that they have bigger sticks than Iran and that they would not hesitate to use them in the face of such a deadly threat as 600 missiles. Israeli ambiguity is what is most likely to lead to mis-calculations by Iran with obvious results. Thanks for posting on this issue, it gives me the opportunity to extend and clarify my remarks. ….steve

5. the Grit on July 16th, 2007

   Hi Steve,

   Lord Crimson posted on this as well. He agrees with you. Personally, I don’t think they are that insane, but time will tell.

   the Grit

   Hi Grit…………I’m going to get right over to LC and read that……..steve

6. Visitor on July 16th, 2007

   What exactly constitutes an “Islamic manner of reasoning”? Do you realize that the only Islamic suicide bombers have been Sunnis? Do you realized that Iran is Shi’ite? Do you realize that al Qaeda and other forms of Sunni extremism are vehemently anti-Iranian? Do you realize that Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world? That statement I quoted of yours suggests one hell of a generalization. So what do you mean by it?

   And does your PBS video on the birth of Israel discuss all the ethnic cleansing that was involved? Does it discuss how this birth was clearly based on ideas stemming from rascist European colonialism? Does it discuss how Ashkenazi Jews in Israel exploited Mizrahim Jews for cheap labor? Does it discuss how Ashkenazi Jews kidnapped the babies of Mizrahim Jews at birth, telling the parents that the babies had died, in order to destroy the Arab or Persian culture of many of the nation’s Jews? Does it discuss how the Israeli government refused to investigate this? I would guess that it does not.

   Finally, the notion of a war being set off by “cross border military action precipitated by Hezbollah” is very dangerous. Israel and Hezbollah have commonly engaged in cross-border conflicts ever since the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. In fact, the UN has documented FAR more Israeli violations of Lebanese territory than vice versa. This does not justify any cross-border action on the part of Hezbollah, but it does suggest that such action does not justify war (like one year ago).

   Anonymous: It isn’t often that people that commenter here do so clandestinely, but I’ll bite. If you haven’t noticed that Islamic logic (in the context of the current issue of Arab and Islamic centers vs. Israel) is that which supports their interest you should. I don’t know many that would attribute the loftier realms of Aristotelian reason to them. There was nothing in the post or any of the comments or responses as far as I can tell about Suicide Bombing regardless of religious orientation. So I am not sure what you are talking about

   You also have me puzzled here when you say:

   “Does it discuss how this birth was clearly based on ideas stemming from rascist European colonialism? Does it discuss how Ashkenazi Jews in Israel exploited Mizrahim Jews for cheap labor? Does it discuss how Ashkenazi Jews kidnapped the babies of Mizrahim Jews at birth, telling the parents that the babies had died, in order to destroy the Arab or Persian culture of many of the nation’s Jews? Does it discuss how the Israeli government refused to investigate this? I would guess that it does not”

   Is this somehow related to the context of this post. This sounds like your allegation of Jews exploiting other Jews. I am not sure why you think a video on the “birth of Israel” would necessarily include information about alleged social exploitation between the classes in Israel. Does this somehow refute that the Arabs in Israel are the freest in the Middle East? Can you give example of another group of Arabs that are freer, especially when they are of a minority ethnic background?

   Are you referring to the same UN that failed to document many of the Hezbollah incursions in the years leading up to last years war and currently turning the cheek as Hezbollah re-arms in violation of just last Summer’s framework. I wouldn’t take anything they say or publish with much credibility (not to mention their vaunted Food for Oil program or sexual harassment in Africa). As much as an organization can be in today’s era, they are about as anti-Semitic and anti-Israel as you can get.

   If you don’t recognize that it is the Arabs that crush every action or offer of accommodation by the Israelis you are living on a different planet than myself. One thing that the DVD on the Birth of Israel does cover is the fact that the Arabs in the area they like to call Palestine refused the UN Plan of a parallel state with Israel that the Israeli’s accepted. In lieu of their acceptance they joined with the other Arab nations and went to war against Israel. Also, how many decades did the world pressure Israel to accept a trade off of Land for Peace. That turned out to be a joke. Unilaterally Israel walks away from Gaza and they immediately utilize the vacated areas to better train rockets towards Israeli communities. You can nuance it any way you like, but you can’t change the fact that the Palestinians don’t want peace that includes an Israeli nation. Is this a concept that bugs you too.

   One more point, are you suggesting that Hezbollah as a surrogate of Syria and Iran did not precipitate the 2006 war in Lebanon and are not preparing to do the same this year? …..steve

7. Lord Crimson on July 17th, 2007

   Hi Steve

   Great post. We can definitely agree that there is about to be a party in the middle east that should literally bring the house down. As you pointed out Iran is letting Syria do the dirty work so even though Israel is in for a good spanking, I expect the real loser will be Syria.

   Lord Crimson

   LC…..thanks, your right, Iran is up to no good throught the breadth and width of the ME……..steve

8. matt on July 17th, 2007

   just to finish off the request earlier.

   isreal has a tendency to put into effect extreme measures for internal safety from terrorists. i dont begrudge them for it, but it is difficult when some of my colleagues tell me that their families (jewish, christian and messianic jewish) get harrased and stopped at border guard depots. these people are visiting family and seeing holy sites. they were accused of being tied with islamic jihad, hezbollah and hamas by isreali military. they and other colleagues i know also told me that families in southern lebanon (catholic enclaves mainly), were given a 24 hours notice when their region was bombed last year. this is understandable for a time frame under the circumstances, but the way isreal spun it was to say that known hamas cells were in the area and hence the bombing. the refugee families were caught in cross fire and after the fact isreal apparently issued a statement saying that their inteligence data was correct in getting hamas out of the village. i think an honest assesment of the effect of civilians caught in war time cross fire would be appropriate rather than using a blanket statement of terror cells. it might seem then that terror cells can be determined to be everywhere at the convenience of clearing an areas.

   the tactics i feel that is distressing is that if a mistake is made like bombing cilivian enclaves, it is better to acknowlege it as a mistake and say that their intelligence was not accurate. dont blame everything on hamas or hezbollah as a resource to bomb. if you bomb, just go through and bomb and say it is war. that is easier to stomach over after the fact mistakes that devastate civilians.

   dont get me wrong, i know war is hell, but when mistakes are made and strict limits are in place, is this an example when honesty could cover alot of damage so that it does look like it is war realted and not revenge motivated? war unfortuantely does impact civilians, and i know that america would be in total upheaval if we every had to deal with these circumstances. thank god we dont, but i think it is necessary to at least consider it when it is a variable.

   the really uncomfortable report i had awhile ago was apart of a prayer channel. the humanitarian group was asking for prayer for safe travel becuase the military depots on the borders of the protected regions were under strict scrutiny. the group has all necessary documents and the border partols accused them of harboring terrorists. this is definetly the exception and not the rule, but it does show that war is not clean on both sides. this is jsut antoher example of extra tight controls that are tactics that could be responded to with an acknowlegement of inconvenience to lives in war times rather than blaming terrorist activity.

   some business people i know through work told me that their families in isreal have extrememtly hard times in economic dealing with arab christians and palestinians due to sanctions in isreal. the governement mades it extra hard to do business. the reason was they did not want to enable terrorism. this seems like a creative way to say that isreal as a nation will hold back the economic acitivies of said groups in and around occupied lands. i am not accusing them just based on three isolated reports, but i do know that governments when they feel the need to self-protect will pull out all the stops to limit repressed groups growth.

   these are some examples mainly to point out that isreal is not perfect. i do think it is wise to be lax in their treatment of terrorism, but every situation is not terrorism related. i know that isreal does have a huge target on themselves both geographically and ethnically and i dont blame them for drastic measures. i do think they need to be honest and accountable when they make mistakes.

   i bet most readers of this blog will chalk this explanation up to “war is hell”, but at least try to consider what life would be like for the average person living in such a situation. we might see things differently. also, i can say personally, i know that all of the readers are blessed to be born here so we did not have to deal with the consequences of living in war zones. this might naievely make me personally err on the side of grace more often than not and i know that the consequence would be different if i were someplace other than america.

   in closing, i hope that this just exposes some gray matter in what can be seen as a black and white issue regarding soverignty and domestic security for a very small nation in the soup of middle eastern geography. not all will agree and that is ok because i know steve will have succinct, honest and well documented responses to my “tactics” post.

   Matt…..wow you have a lot here, let me highlight a bit. You said:

   some of my colleagues tell me that their families (jewish, christian and messianic jewish) get harrased and stopped at border guard depots.

   If you think about it we do the same thing here. You must get to the airport 1-2 hours early, be subject to interrogation, searching, removing clothing (some cases stripping) and profiling. It is the cost of security that has been brought about by the terrorists of this world. If Israel didn’t deal strictly at the boarder (and I will not exaggerate), every day suicide bombers, arms transporters and terrorists would be flowing into their borders like the Mexicans are our border.

   When you find it convenient to chalk up the situation as war is hell and seemingly ignore the day to day inconvenience and burden it puts on ordinary people I think that the world must assess that it is the likes of Hamas that is the cause of all this. What we must do to defend ourselves from aggressors should attributed to the aggessors not the defenders………steve

9. matt on July 17th, 2007

   sorry, but i need to mention that i dont thnk it is wise for isreal to be lax in terrorism. i miss typed. isreal as any country should must protect themselves and thier citizens.

   Matt…… “israel mus protect themselves” ………. Therein lies another Rub. This is what is so irritating to thw world. The try to protect themselves and they usually do it so well…………steve

10. Daniel on July 22nd, 2007

    I have noticed however that the murder of innocent people is almost always initiated by the Arabs.

    Said one of the responses above, the Grit I believe…

    How could this be true when the initiation of all murders happened after the false zionist propaganda prior to the creation of the Jewish state ” LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE TO A PEOPLE WITHOUT LAND” . The land was WITH PEOPLE so the first Massacre of innocent Palestinian people in Deir Yassin took place and all has followed since…

    Do not just blame the Arabs, Israel invaded their land not the opposite, despite the biblical hallucination of the “promissed lot” …

    Daniel…….. “prior to the creation of the Jewish state” You seem to have a short-term, long-term memory. How do you get the idea that Israel is some type of rogue or occupying presense in the Jewish state. I see you have read your history but not fully. I think they have prior claim based on a more extensive review of history in areas as Jericho, Bethehelem, Nazareth, Sidon, Jerusalem, etc. The Biblical hallucination that you refer to is not based on some grasp of a promise land but a reality of a nation that lived, worked and suffered at the hands of others for centuries upon centuries as a matter of history. I suppose you have read but choose to ignore Josepheus……..steve

11. MOBY on August 10th, 2007

    I can’t add your post to Digg. How I do this?

    Moby…….thanks, but I don’t know. Go to mommyzabs here http://www.mommyzabs.com/ and ask her, she’ll be able to tell you…………….steve

12. Mr.Dick on August 17th, 2007

    I don’t added your topik to bookmarks

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